Phil Campbell Interview

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Okay. So, I would like to welcome one of my good friends, Mr. Phil Campbell. And you are the first person back on the brand new refi view as well. So, I I don't know if this is going to see because the camera switches back and forth, but because he hasn't made a sound, he's…

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Okay. So, I would like to welcome one of my good friends, Mr. Phil Campbell. And you are the first person back on the brand new refi view as well. So, I I don't know if this is going to see because the camera switches back and forth, but because he hasn't made a sound, he's doing like little claps. So, he's I'm assuming he's either sarcastic or he's very honored. One or the other. We're going to go with honored. No, I I would I would say first off very honored as always that you'd want to take a wee bit of time to have a chat, but also it's great to see you back um in this capacity doing the things that need to be done within um Irish the Irish MMA community with regards to the coverage. And from from what I can gather, there's a there's room for aggressive expansion within uh your uh your organization, shall we say? I just made it sound like you're in the RA there. Sorry. >> Well, where' you think I'm getting the money from? Um yeah well there was thank you as well for for the kind words. Um there was I you've seen what I was doing before and I couldn't keep doing you like how many times had I gone as hard if I kind of gone now at the minute like I'm I'm off work. I'm on annual leave at the minute. So um I've got more time to do this. But when I was doing it full time you remember I was ratting I could have been writing three four interviews out a day. It's only and then I burn out >> and I burn and >> a couple of people had inquired obviously Brian Lena and then Allan from the UK. So Brian had done his own interview stuff but he said he'd like to do like stuff together and it kind of takes the pressure off if all of us do at least >> one interview a week or one piece of content that's all like know that that that covers four days and then obviously I I will be doing more. Well, Lena, she's from Austria. She lived in Ireland and she competed twice and she said she was interested. Then I was thinking we could expand into somewhere else and especially cuz it's going to be a first time doing interviews and stuff. I said, "Well, maybe go around and do what I done in the amine in Austria and try and expand it and then then then hopefully maybe we get more people on board." But I just want and I want to create something that it's not seen as mine, it's ours and it's the communities that if I was able to walk away or these guys were able to walk away that someone else could pick up that mantle and take it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> You know the sort of way. So yeah. No, thank you very much for asking. about you. You were recently on PFL, the first Irish commentator ever to commentate on PFL. Number one, congratulations. Number two was welld deserved for all the hard work you've done. I remember when I got into MMA, it was your voice that was ringing through my head when I was doing yours and no Keith. So that makes me sound old for a start. >> I only started five years ago and you are younger than me, which we found out cuz you keep on being an old man now. No, it's it's m it's mad. I said I think I did my first my first commentary gig, it might have been 2018 or so. So that is a fair while. So when people start referring to me as like a a veteran of comedy or or stuff like that or they say that they watch fights back in the day and mine was a voice they heard, it's uh it's it's weirdly humbling and just reminds me that I'm not young because I still feel like I still feel like I'm figuring this out. Do you know what I mean? I still feel like I'm I'm growing. I'm I'm trying to get better. I still suffer with imposter syndrome every day. And that's a huge motivating factor, you know. So, you can turn that into into a positive as well and do everything you can within your part to make sure that you're the best you're the best version of yourself and what you're trying to do. >> Yeah, I get the same as well. And like you said, I use that as and I'm very hard on myself sometimes. People like and I'm like, no, if I'm not hard on myself, I'm going to coast. And I'm not seeing the interviews come out like to get to where you are. I'm going to I can't go and just be to go like you didn't get to where you are by just uh resting on your laurels and relaxing. So it was good. But but PFL what what was it like and what does it mean to you to to to have these records because sometimes when you start something and obviously you have end goals in mind or you have this there's a lot of milestones that you might not realize you break on the journey. What was it like breaking a milestone like that? >> It it was huge. Well, from when it initially happened, I thought I got an email and I initially thought it was like a mate taking a piss. So, I kind of like sort of like half half-heartedly like ignored it, but then I got like another email and there was like Zoom calls and it been actually been in the there've been conversations going in and around it for about six months. Um, and there was almost like uh not quite audition phases, but I was like uh on Zoom calls to to the head of the head of their global television, Mr. George Greenberg and things like that. And that in and of itself um was absolutely mind-blowing. But I tell you, they're called the PFL, the Professional Fighters League. And from start to finish, uh what an organization uh the the professional aspect. I know it sounds a we bit silly to say that, but the the care they take organizationally, the structure, the the running of a show on Show Night, absolutely incredible. Um uh and and yeah, absolutely loved uh loved I see my first show was kind of like on audition on audition. Um and now you know they've you know I'm signed up long term with them which which is really really cool. >> They got you just before transfer deadline and they and they have you they have you now. But um what was so like you were saying obviously there was back and forth but you've done this for a while and obviously like you say you suffer from imposter syndrome like when I see or hear you I I feel like job this is you and you're this this is your you were made for this but what's it like when you get to it like did when you got to the PFL and you seen the experience and you seen everything was you like kind of like wow like in 2008 did you envision being in a position you are now? Jesus Christ. No. Um, but uh I always try with new experiences like that to take a wee moment or two to go and enjoy. And if I'm working in a new place, I'll take myself off to the back seat of an arena or a stadium. My first show with the PFL was in the Coca-Cola arena in Abu Dhabi. Uh the same arena that Paul Hughes fought Usmanov. So I took myself off to the back seat on like second or third tier and just sat for a we moment and just enjoyed it. you know, there was like we didn't didn't even take a picture or anything like that. Just sat and kind of thought, you know, this is well cool. You the PFL logo all over the place and yeah, it was uh it was really really cool. >> And do you think that's something that people should do? Because I know with fighters especially, Joe, they're trying to rush through to get to this end goal and especially when it comes to fighting, just saying Belfast or Dublin or Derry where they may be from >> and they don't relish it kind of as amateurs and stuff and they don't realize they might not get the chance to. Is that something that you've always done is take it in or is it something that you've picked up over time that okay, I really didn't take that in at the time. I'm going to start doing it from now on. >> It genuinely happens as you get older. And I think not just that's not just true of MMA, it's true of life. When you get older, life starts moving at an expediated rate. You know what I mean? So, you have to take a bit of time to slow down and enjoy the enjoy the moments. I think when when I was a wee bit younger, maybe starting off in my career because I mean I started my my my commentary career when I was in my late 20s you know so even when you've got that kind of head space on you're like right what's next what am I doing next what's the next achievement the next milestone the next goal but now I'm just kind of like taking we moments not resting on what you're doing by any stretch of the imagination but enjoying you know what you are where you are what you are what you get to do and you know thinking you know this is pretty cool and it's okay to think that it's okay to think that you Yeah, it is because because sometimes we go through life and you look back at stuff that might have happened in your 20s and stuff, you're like, I really didn't take that in and and you're thinking if you had those experiences now, you would view them so much more different or like you said, just going up and sitting and and not taking a picture is a crucial thing as well because you're just like, okay, taking your day by yourself, but um we're not going to go through your kind of whole career, but what what led you into country? How did that opportunity arise itself in 2018? I think I was I was um I was uh I was I was I was either meant to fight on a show and I wasn't able to fight during an injury or the person that I was fighting wasn't able to fight because of an injury. So I was still there and and I'd said to the promoter or the promoter said to me, you know, would you fancy sitting and doing doing a bit of commentary? So I was like, yeah, 100%. Um I sat in with with no key from the get-go. Me and N just had, you know, no still very very close friend of mine and from the get-go, we just had we just sort of clicked and had really good chemistry and um like I from even from my time competing, I never wanted I never I didn't really have that hunger, nor did I have the skill level to to kind of, you know, take it as far as you could go. And I never had these kind of aspirations. I only because I started off as a fan of the sport, a proper  geek of the sport. Do you know what I mean? So I only ever did the sport to understand the mechanics of it more. I only ever competed to really understand the mechanics of the sport. Uh and so to then progress into commentary where I was able to communicate those mechanics to people I thought was kind of a logical progression and what it used and I I love it like do you know what I mean? I absolutely love every sing I still get just as excited going to comment a show as I did. I'm nervous as of the very first time I did it. And I love every single second of from the first fight, whether it's whether it's, you know, a a novice amateur fight or whether it's somebody making a pro debut on a big show, you know, that that from from start to finish, man. I still love every single second of it. >> Yeah. And see what you're saying. I'm only starting to kind of see those parts of it now. Like the people going pro, your Keith Kos, Conor McCarti, and then Sen Ki and Oliver were two people that I'd be quite I've done a lot of interviews with. I was quite close and I was commentating on a show in Belfast and that finished and I raced across to to to get in just for the final two fights and you I didn't realize how excited I was to see stuff like that and you talk about being a fan of the sport and fight and competing to to learn the logistics of it and there is people who go to college to do these kind of things and that but I think it's better suited for someone who is a fan because you genuinely understand the sport and the passion. Um, do you think for people who might want to get in like there's no kind of criteria? Well, there is obviously a criteria, but you don't have to have degrees or this that the other. I think it's just you have to have a genuine interest and passion for a sport. >> You have to have a genuine interest and passion. Uh, and you have to, you know, there are people who get into aspects of either media and MMA or the commentary side of things because they want to be known as a personality within the sport. You know, it's kind of self grandiose and a little bit self-indulgent. They want to be known as somebody within the sport as opposed to being to wanting to be a part of the community of it. And I think if your intentions, if you have the right intentions going into it, you'll do all right. But like me for example, like I I have no broadcast training. I have no media training. You know, my my degree was in criminology and criminal justice. So there was all transferable skills there. Do you know what I mean? It's just something that you kind of adapt over time. And um I don't think that you need to be a Polish broadcaster cuz I'm not a Polish broadcaster by any stretch of the imagination. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm I see commentary as a conversation between you and somebody else who loves the sport just as much as you. And it should feel like you're having a conversation with your mate on the sofa about it, breaking it down in those terms. Or I always think, you know what, if somebody's never seen an MMA fight before, how can I make this accessible to them? >> Yeah. Because people have to understand and people I hate when people say casuals because if it wasn't for so-called casuals the sport wouldn't generate a huge amount of money because when Conor McGregor fights >> that that they come in and like obviously we're hardcore we were all casuals at one stage you know what I mean nobody starts off as a die hard a casual is just somebody who is maybe entry level into the sport and if you can if you can make the sport relatable for them in any kind of way to bring them in but then that that's a new fan of the sport which is class. >> Yeah. No 100%. And I like where you say you break it down and >> and you put it very simply that it it could be understand. So like someone sitting at home, you're not you turn out big words that you need to get source for. Well, you do have you do have some of them, but you you do someone got you into source for Christmas, I'm guessing. But um but like I think you break it down very like in layman. It's very, you know, understandable and relatable. Um, >> well, there's no point in me throwing out terms like Uji Mata and Harshi and things like that, you know, like like as a martial artist, you know those terms, but somebody who's never done martial arts before isn't going to know that. So, they're thinking, what what what's he talking about? And it's a we bit it's still a wee bit elitist, I think, to to to use some archaic terms and martial arts when you don't need to. >> Yeah. No, 100%. Um with obviously you've got PFL, you've got like you do a host of shows uh around the country and that's one thing I me and you need to who is so whoever's watching this promotion you need to get two of us on at some stage but obviously with being away for PFL the big stages you still love and your heart is still in the amine what you think of the well not the am scene but the regional scene >> oh the regional >> and now it's bubbling isn't it >> it's on fire in the best possible way do you know what I mean like like I I I I love going and and and doing um and doing the international work with the likes of the PFL. I'm still with Brave Combat Federation. I'm literally just back from Bulgaria two days ago. We had a fantastic show with them. But like I say, I still get as much of a buzz like see if I know there's a cage conflict or something coming up and getting on that researching the fights knowing that it's going to be an absolute buzz in the Devonish uh the likes of of uh Gladiator like even when even when it gets like um judge shows like like I stuff like that you know to be involved in these shows and like it seems to be that the the Irish MMA is in such a healthy state and it continues to kind of grow when you've the the Belfast Amateur League for example you I've I've worked I've worked at as part of big arm Wallace's commission and to see kids that are like from six years old and up who are so technically clean that lets you know that that Irish MMA will continue to be in a very healthy state because it's very safe hands. >> Yeah, you've got Henry and Adam in charge and by I've never been by all means >> has raved about it. I've had people actually just text me and go, "Bro, you need to do something like you need to interview the boys or something." And I have boys on like this show is unreal. And I think it's essential because there isn't a national MMA MMA leagues in Dublin, but sometimes that it's not accessible for people from Belfast and Vice. So, at least there there's the two and and but the boys are doing tournaments like it's just like and every show I think what the last one had 70 something fights, am I right? Or 60 something. 70 68 57 I had two cages. So you know you you know and do you know what I think I had I had a show with Hexagon in France and I wasn't able to be at the show and I I was gutted genuinely gutted that I couldn't make that show. So I I want to try and get to as much um as as much Irish MMA in some capacity. Even for example, like myself and Big Arm Wallace have a rare day off when uh Cage Warriors is on down in Dublin on the 26th. We've got our tickets and we're going to go set for the first time, I don't know how long, being able to set as a fan and enjoy a show. So, I'm buzzing for that. >> And what a show for it to be because with the with the lineup so far, there's a lot of civil war going on here. And I blame Andy Ste. Well, not blame Andy Stevenson, but I think like if I look >> Andy Ste Andy Stevenson's an instigator. >> People like people like that get slapped. >> Now that's not me threatening and that's me quoting Nick Diaz. That's all in case that gets misconstrued. All right. Famous interview with Nick Diaz and Ariel Hwani. >> Uh yeah, I remember that when they're standing in the hall. He goes, "Yeah, sometimes you say, but like but I don't." But when I look back to because obviously you competed, big Aaron Wallace competed and you look back like Chris Re and Patty Hool and they all had to fight each other. >> A memory came up. It was either today or yesterday. 13 years ago, Aaron Wallace competing in the Olter Hall >> when he middleweight >> when he was a middleweight. Um, do you know who he fought at middleweight in the Oster Hall? I'm not sure if it was the same fight. Majorski. Big Majik Gosski who then eventually dropped down to 155 and competed on uh competed on Brave, competed on Bellator. So that's an interesting we rank. But I 13 years ago Big Arm Wallace was knocking boys about the cage. >> Yeah. And then he's >> And now and now he's protecting them >> and we're always holding him around and brave that that clip of him with the two boys, man. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Someone showed me and I was like, "I know him." And they're like, "Yeah." I I say like, "Bro, like, you do not realize I do MMA. Like, I know him. It's not as if like he's a he but >> with I'm ab losing me train of thought now because we're having so much fun." But one of the things is you talked about being like that you do judging and you uh you do refing as well, don't you? Like you're >> I have refed before, but if uh I it's not something I ever want. I only do it if you know your your your second and third last options can't do it. Do you know what I mean? It's uh not something I want to pursue, but I love judging. Um I did the Mark Godard course in February of uh February this year. Uh and it was a real eye opener as well because if you're involved in the sport, you think you know most things about it, but really breaking it down and actually sitting in a room with Mark Godard and learning from him was really cool. >> Yeah, it would be. And that's something I was thinking about doing because I seen that the that they run courses. I know I ran courses and I think Matt was I know. Are you just coming for Are you just coming for everything I work for? >> Yeah. >> Judging I'm going to have a coffee on walls on Wednesday. Do you just want to turn up yet instead of me? >> I can't I'm not as good-looking as you. for um but no I I think for people in the like not for people who just kind of view it and all but I think for me to have a greater understanding because obviously I've I have some commentary gigs as well and I do media and I think as well watching the fights like there's been some fights where I'm like I thought that person won and then someone might explain it to me that sort of way I think >> get a greater understanding of of kind of what it was. Did you go in wanting to be a judge or did you want to go in to be >> Yeah, >> that was it. It wasn't just to get more of an understanding. It was like you >> I had >> I had judged uh for a bit um for uh Decky Lens's commission and Arm Wallace's commission before that, but this was a way of just being certified and either confirming the things that I was doing well or shining light on the things I was doing badly, more importantly, that I had to selforrect or correct through learning from the likes of Mark Godard. So, no, I I I love judging. Um I love judging. I love commissioning. You know, we spoke about the PFL there. My first ever actually show working for the PFL was in Belfast as a commissioner back in April. So, I actually started I started my career with the PFL backstage. >> No, but that's good. That's how you see a lot of people get into these face. Like said, we were talking before we came on. You've got lads out, you've got Derek Hickeyi, uh that does PFL. H a big Anthony Wallace was in the UFC. I put it up and someone said I thought that was him but I was like it's not I said it is they were like me it actually it is him and it's so it just shows that it's not just the fighters that are prospering in the country is commentators rest judges everybody people in the media that you see as well but like you've had a long I keep saying long since it's not that long I don't want to make you feel old but over the course of kind of since you've been doing commentary there's a couple of things I want to ask you what's the best knockout you've seen in person or the best knockout that you've all in person. >> Oo, you can give you can give screen question. >> You can give three if that helps. >> Uh Majki over Kane Cowi uh at Brave 24 in London was an incredible knockout and I think at the time it was made all the most special by the fact that Majek was my teammate and is my friend the you know so that that was really cool. Some other good knockouts. Oh, you put me on the spot. Um I'm trying to think regionally what good uh car maliga was another great one. Um or was that the other way round? Can't I hope I haven't got that the wrong way round but uh but it was class. No but yeah. Yeah. Um those are are two that would stick out quite uh quite promptly for me. Yeah. >> Yeah. cuz the recent scene is like you said it's popping and there's been some magical nights in like one of the best nights I remember was Cage Legacy Troy Gibson versus Jordan O'Neal. Do you remember that? Did you commentate on that? >> Yes. Yes, I believe I did. Uh yes, I did. It was in um was it um Yes, it was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh Shauna Bannon fought on that as well, I believe. Uh, big jumbo about Jordan O'Neal when he fought Trevor Mckeno and got a TKO finish off his back. >> That was, wasn't it? >> What's that? >> Was that Clan Wars that was on? >> H Clown Wars. Yeah. Uh, Jordan O'Neal and Trevor Mckeno. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was cool. >> Yeah. And that's what the the two boys obviously they're they're both fighting about on cage wars and you look how where they are now and it's like when you watch these fighters go from novice to pro in these places do you feel like a sense of like wow I've watched their journey since the one that would stick out for me would be Ian Gari uh for example like I called his first ever amateur MMA fight I I gave him his nickname the future so to then see him to progress now where he's the number one contender in the UFC see stuff like that's really cool. Um Kalin Lan, another one. I've called a lot of his amateur fights and then to see the way he's progressed, you know, some really really cool. Um Owen Mas Oliver, another one, you know, from from from his amateur days to then progress to the PFL. Some really really really cool fights, man. Really cool fights. and and again seeing their journey um and being just I know you don't really have a reason to to feel this way but you do feel a sense of pride you do feel proud of them I don't I never train with them I never coached them or anything like that but you're you're just so happy for them to see them doing so well in their careers class >> yeah it's like you said this feels really strange because I actually text someone and I actually said this feels really strange for me to say to but I'm really proud of what you've accomplished so when it's like so and I'm like it's that It sounds strange, but it is. It's like a sense of like just watching someone achieve and saying they were going to do it, do it, and then it's just like, yes, you did do it. Because like how many people have you seen in and out of sport that they're the next big thing and they're gone, which is is a shame. You've probably seen that a lot over the past eight years or so in commentary alone. >> I also think as a country, we always punch above our weight. Do you know what I mean? You know, Ireland is an island that when it comes to to sport, we're always punching above our weight. I I think you know you're gen like like I want everyone in Irish MMA to do well. Do you know what I mean? I believe a rising tide lifts all ships. I believe that there's enough space for everybody. So to see people do well and again you know we're you've essentially got civil war on the 26th of September uh down at at Cage Warriors. But again that's because Irish MMA is so good right now that you're seeing these matchups. It's Yeah, it's brilliant. >> Yeah, it is. And that's what what I was saying about Andy Seam. Sorry, I said I blame, but I think I think at some stages it has to happen because I think you have to some you have to rise to the cream of the C because he would like Chris Fields and all them, they offer they had to fight each other twice sometimes because there was a and I know there is a vast net out there, but I think I don't think two people on their debuts like see like Cory McLolin and Mario that was that fair play for Tun for taking it. That was a cage wires level fight I felt um there and see and they went in and that's why I said fair play to the two coaches and the two fighters because you don't see fights like that and you seen it recently with Cory and uh Masky as well. >> Wow, that was an incredible fight. >> And the thing was with that as well, Masky was in that fight until he like it was going good until it wasn't. >> Yeah. Yeah. And again, like that's two top tier young two top tier young fighters who are willing to fight each other at this stage of their career. So, I have so much respect for them and their coaches and their teams because it's not like MMA doesn't really follow the boxing model where you get a young prospect who's really not fighting somebody until maybe uh his 10th or 15th fight. You know, it's like this is MMA where the best fight each other consistently. So, that that's and that shows a that shows a a real desire for young fighters to want to take on these challenges. >> Yeah. No, 100%. Because see, that's that's what we would be scared. I'd be scared if it started going down that route because for me, like you said, I think I looked at Canelo's first 10 fights and then I looked at someone else's and I was just like, that's madness. Like I don't think the people he fought in his first 10 fights had probably hadn't even broken 20 wins between all 10 of them. Do you know? Well, maybe not that low, but if you get what I'm saying, they were like in the hundreds for losses, over 100 for losses, but they were barely in the tens for like like 20 or something. Well, again, you see it a little bit happening in the likes of England now where you kind of have journey journeyman MMA fighters and to the point where the likes of Topology doesn't even recognize a win against them. >> Yeah. And as yet and that's good that they're calling out cuz when if people fight them and I've seen people pull from cars cuz just say you have an Irish fighter fighting someone from the UK they don't realize so they'll just see the fighter go okay cuz someone who's zero and two or three or zero and five we know ourselves like Dylan Douglas is an example he had a great amateur career and then he just was unlucky with fights and Dylan Douglas's record doesn't reflect his actual skill level so we probably thinking that bringing these people over and then you look on tapology and go oh this guy and I've seen people pull front cars because of it cuz they're like it's not going to count. >> Aron Broen's another example like that man's a dog. That man's not an easy fight for anybody, but I think he's what 0 and4 or something as a pro, but he's been competitive, you know. >> He nearly broke McDonald's arm. >> Yeah. Danger dangerous guy. Dangerous guy. >> And then he I think he fought at Vertus as well and it was a really really good fight. Like he's one of he's always in there. He's tough. He keeps coming and and see like that. That's why if I see a Z4 guy I'm like right that doesn't mean reflects the skill level. He still can be competitive. But in England I think it was hands were higher. There was even people that had businesses for it and stuff and which is disgusting because it really diminishes the sport and integrity of the sport and especially they had Facebook cuz someone put one of them put up even if you're a crackhead I'll pay you to fight and you're just like you're just like yeah we're going to have to go back and do a lot more work to build this back up guys like and they need to be ostracized from the scene because they're hurting the work that the likes of you Danny Core down John Kavana down south like they they're diming on the work that everyone's put in for years and years and years. And the problem is with media as well that are outside MMA. Someone could have a fight 10 years ago, but if they do something bad, they're an MMA fighter and they're always going to pick up on the bad things. So no matter you could do a 100 good things, but that one thing is going to be highlighted and it just sets us back. So I think within the community, we need to ostracize them ourselves. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that I think that's something that that's happening. I like I always say like MMA especially Irish MMA fans are probably some of the smartest sporting fans. So that they know they know when a fight looks a bit fugazy if you will. So and it's it's a hard sometimes like a a bad fight is a hard cell the Irish MMA fans. >> Yeah. No 100% 100%. I'm going to let you go but I'm going to ask you one question for the in aspiring commentators judges rest media people who who might be too nervous to try and cross that barrier. Is there any advice that you'd give to them that has helped you uh in your journey so far and what a journey it's been? >> Uh go into it with the right intention. Um cuz I was at as I say I went I went to the Mark Godard course and we were all asked for our experience and you know why we were at the course and a guy said uh I want to I want to quit my job and become a full-time judge. There are very very few people who make a full-time living at MMA in the world when it comes to like refereeing. I think Mark Godard and her dean are the only full-time referees in the world. And you think about the shift they put in. Uh I worked full-time right up until about twoish years ago when I was able at a in a space in my life where I was able to do this full-time. So don't be thinking you're going to roll off or quit your job and you're you're going to live the high like I I make a livable wage. Do you know what I mean? I'm I'm not balling by any stretch of the imagination. I live just like anybody else does. I have to like be smart with my money. So, don't be thinking that you're, you know, you're going to live the high life and go in and make loads of money from this, but go into it with the right intention. Uh, go into it with, uh, a willingness to learn and to listen to other people and just work hard. It's as simple as that. You know, there's there's a misconception. Um, I think Paul Brown spoke about it the other day about always working, whether that's on uh your commentary side of things or or some element to do with MMA. And he hit the nail on the head. Do you know what I mean? This is not an industry where you can rest on your laurels or or it will pass you by and you will get out what eventually you will get out what you put into it. >> Yeah. No, 100%. Um, thank you very much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure. Um, I will be seeing you shortly. Are you on Vertus? Are you >> I am indeed. Yes, I am indeed. >> And I think I might be there. I'm waiting to see uh what's uh the story with me for the next few weeks, but it's looking like I could potentially be there cuz I've actually been talking to Jerry and I'm going to organize doing and promoting the alpha project for him as well and getting some >> lovely mate. Happy days. Good to see you as well. So, >> it'll be good to see you in the flesh, big man. >> Well, we'll see you when you see me. Yeah. But look, it's been an absolute pleasure. Best luck with the rest of your journey and I want to thank you for for everything that you've done for me and all the help that you've given me. And like I said, if there's anyone out there that needs two people for a show, we need to work together at some stage and it will happen. >> Go for ma. >> Thank you very much and enjoy your day, Pat.